Reversed Anti-Torque Pedals and likewise cockpit oddities

MayhemMcAwesome

Rudder pedals are animated backwards (left instead of right and vice-versa) on the OH-6 cockpits.
This can be readily seen with Advanced Flight Model enabled.

All such pedals should operate in a "step to the side you wanna go" manner. It's a bit weird when they don't

Related oddity:

Most, if not all collective levers animate only when AFM is disabled - They remain static when Advanced mode is enabled, in the exactly opposite manner of the default ArmA helicopters behavior on this regard.

Assorted bug-like observations:

Littlebird torque gauge does not move in AFM
Huey oil pressure gauge remains at zero with engine running
Littlebird Attitude Indicator appears to be stuck at -90º pitch?

Anyways, these are minor details, as you can readily tell - But then again, always worth pointing it out, even if just for the record.

Awesome mod overall! Keep it up - As a fellow game programmer, I enthusiastically applaud this!

Apollo3CB

Thanks for your report, all good points.

We have fixed the anti-torque pedal movement direction on the OH-6A in our internal build, based on your correct observation, thanks!

The collective can only be animated using either the standard (SFM) or the advanced flight model (AFM) collective animation sources, unfortunately not both. It's possible that the collective animationSource for SFM was introduced relatively recently, explaining why older vanilla helicopters don't use it. As the majority of players use the SFM, we chose that option for the collective animation.

There is no anti-torque pedal movement animation source in the SFM, so it can only be animated in AFM.

krzychuzokecia

Additionally, when you're passenger in UH-1D (possibly affects other Hueys too), none of the gauges/indicators in cockpit will move for you (noticeable in Temporary Duty mission).

NightIntruder

krzychuzokecia wrote:
Additionally, when you're passenger in UH-1D (possibly affects other Hueys too), none of the gauges/indicators in cockpit will move for you (noticeable in Temporary Duty mission).

This is by the design, from the very beginning of the Arma series. Passengers of an aircraft actually see a different interior model (View Cargo LOD) than pilot and (sometimes) copilot (View Pilot LOD). This is to reduce net traffic, as the amount of indicators in some aircraft is insane, and dynamically synchronizing all of them among all players involved would be really heavy server-side and could increase a lag. It can be done the way you described, but I see a lot of reasons not to. Actually, it's quite common practice among game developers to create "pilot/driver-view-only" model, as this way everything related to it can be computed locally. Have seen it in most of flight simulator games and some of car simulator games as well.
PS. Being a passenger, I would love to see moving indicators as this way I could tell who really crashed a helo and won't have to rely on pilots' fairy tales, hyhy, but don't find it reasonable in the nearest future ;-)

krzychuzokecia

After 11 years of modding Arma I'm perfectly aware of the various LOD types used in the game, thank you.
To my best knowledge indicators and gauges supported by the engine (airspeed, compass, attitude, artificial horizon) are calculated on client. This can be best seen when having lag/desync issues - on your client aircraft will continue to do whatever it was doing before, with indicators "confirming" what you see on the screen. However on the server (and other clients) aircraft may be in different place, with different fligh parameters.

Net traffic issues you speak about may only be applicable to some custom features, but even then it depends on how scripter solved the whole locality problem.

And even if you'd be right, apparently even BI themselves don't think much about the issue, because several helis in vanilla Arma 3 have animated indicators from passenger seat. It's applicable even in older games from the series (for example H-1 variations in Arma 2 and A2😮A), including third party addons (for example BAS H-60 addon pack for OFP - this one includes custom indicators, like digital map and positioning system, which are still animated for passengers). Seems to me that the main reason behind animating, or not animating, cockpit indicators in Cargo LOD in a particular helicopters is "can you see it from the passenger seat". Answer to which, in case of Hueys, is "yes".

NightIntruder

krzychuzokecia wrote:
2. To my best knowledge indicators and gauges supported by the engine (airspeed, compass, attitude, artificial horizon) are calculated on client. This can be best seen when having lag/desync issues - on your client aircraft will continue to do whatever it was doing before, with indicators "confirming" what you see on the screen. However on the server (and other clients) aircraft may be in different place, with different fligh parameters.

This is exactly my point, give it a second thought, follow the data path among PCs and add to the whole computation the issue of AFM, which is the thing you are clearly not much familiar with, aren't you? And then, look at those damn flight instruments you want to see for whatever reasons and tell me what you got. 😉
And, no, I never said BI has done everything right. In fact, hundreds (if not thousands) of players keep saying that from the very beginning of the Arma series.

krzychuzokecia

I'm sorry, but with "physical evidence" (behaviour observed during online play) I don't see your point, which is that the cockpit indicators/gauges (whether in plane, heli, car etc.) are calculated server-side. Especially since every vehicle is local to the client currently in control of it, not the server.

In OFP, before the signature check, one of the easiest cheats was to give your vehicle a higher range of turret traverse in config - no one would even notice this, unless someone would get into your vehicle, causing desync and often server crash due to data mismatch. That would not be possible if all the vehicle animations would be calculated server-side - you'd desync/crash yourself, after going past the rotation limit as set in the server config.

NightIntruder

krzychuzokecia wrote:
I don't see your point, which is that the cockpit indicators/gauges (whether in plane, heli, car etc.) are calculated server-side.

This is not my point. My points were:

the computed data from the local PC (pilot) have to be broadcasted and synchronized to passengers by the server otherwise passengers won't see the indicators correctly moving, right?
since desynch sometimes causes mayhem on a server (mid-flight crashes, etc). intention to create a bigger burden and net usage just for people to see those indicators moving is a truly stupid idea, especially if there are multiple aircraft fully packed with players,
indicators in most models of cockpits are usually high poly parts and that add to an unnecessary drop in performance for passengers if you duplicate them in Cargo View LOD,
on top of that AFM drive a lot of indicators with its own animation sources, and they are only calculated on the pilot's computer and not broadcasted in any way (apart from the outcome of the AFM calculations which is helo's position, vectors, etc.) thus you will not see those indicators moving at all unless you're gonna duplicate the same indicators for passengers and animate them with standard animation whenever possible. Not always it is, as it was already discussed somewhere on this board regarding collective lever where's the issue you rather animate it using AFM source or the SFM one,
on top of that (again), an addon might have hundreds of custom ("user") animation sources, and in the case of my aircraft addons where some of them have dozens of warning lamps and indicators custom driven, I intentionally removed the possibility for passengers to be part of that great experience pilots have, and would never ever say I crippled my addon or bugged it. I would say - it is an optimization process and fully support that path SOGPF devs have taken - assuming it was intentional ;-)

Man, how about this? You're gonna create your own helicopter addon for A3 or maybe three different would be better, show us what you got and we will be tormenting for a while with hardly concealed pleasure, huh? 😆 I bet you will have an answer for every question we might have! Truly win-win scenario, don't you think? 😂

krzychuzokecia

NightIntruder wrote:
This is not my point. My points were:

the computed data from the local PC (pilot) have to be broadcasted and synchronized to passengers by the server otherwise passengers won't see the indicators correctly moving, right?

Wrong.

The computed data from the local PC (pilot) have to be broadcasted and synchronized to passengers by the server otherwise passengers won't see THE AIRCRAFT correctly moving.

The indicators on passengers' PCs are animated on their PCs based on that OBLIGATORY DATA, there is no additional net packets sent which contain the indicators positions. Just like there are no net packets containing "position of icon on map" (because, again, it's computed on clients from the data about aircraft position) or "numbers to display in GUI". The same applies to AFM - as you yourself noticed, AFM-only indicators are not animated on other clients, and that is precisely because the indicator positions ARE NOT broadcasted over the net. If they would be, passengers would see the indicators move.

NightIntruder wrote:
indicators in most models of cockpits are usually high poly parts and that add to an unnecessary drop in performance for passengers if you duplicate them in Cargo View LOD

That may be true (depends on the complexity of model), but apparently SOG😛F devs don't think it's the case with their Hueys, because the complexity of the dashboard in Pilot LOD and Cargo LOD is the same - including the "arrows" on the gauges. Matter of fact, these elements are present even in third person (first Resolution LOD).

NightIntruder wrote:
on top of that (again), an addon might have hundreds of custom ("user") animation sources (...)

That's why I exactly said I'm talking about engine supported animations, not whatever extended features authors want to make. Read carefully next time.

NightIntruder wrote:
Man, how about this? You're gonna create your own helicopter addon for A3 or maybe three different would be better, show us what you got and we will be tormenting for a while with hardly concealed pleasure, huh? 😆 I bet you will have an answer for every question we might have! Truly win-win scenario, don't you think? 😂

That's kind of weird dick-measuring contest, but how about you look for my work which is publicly available? As opposed to your ports, I create most of my content from scratch. If you're lucky, you may also find my addons ported from other games, which is used privately on few servers. Of course it's all OFP stuff, but it's based on the same techniques and methods. If I'll ever fancy myself doing whatever in Arma 3, I'll let you know first.

In the mean time I propose you to create a completely original addon, with no borrowed content, for OFP - it should be so easy for expert like you.

NightIntruder

krzychuzokecia wrote:
The computed data from the local PC (pilot) have to be broadcasted and synchronized to passengers by the server otherwise passengers won't see THE AIRCRAFT correctly moving.

And that's exactly what I wrote and you cited above. I used a shorthand there, yes.

krzychuzokecia wrote:
[..] as you yourself noticed, AFM-only indicators are not animated on other clients, and that is precisely because the indicator positions ARE NOT broadcasted over the net. If they would be, passengers would see the indicators move.

We started talking about indicators, but in fact the whole limitation expands on things like main rotor, collective lever or rudder, etc., it's not just flying instruments. Basically, AFM is not transmitted, you agreed to that. By the way, how you imagine seeing a pointer of engine torque working for a passenger? There are several such indicators driven by the AFM. Pilot Flying can see them moving and no one else. So, basically, you can animate part of them or none, for passengers. Since consistency is not available and we stuck on half-measures forever, my choice is performance. But you can have some of your beloved indicators moving for whatever reason, sure. Maybe SDG indeed wants to fulfill your needs somehow, who knows? But... wait! If they cannot be moved so what the bug report was for in the very first place? Again, what motivation is driving you buddy?

krzychuzokecia wrote:
That's why I exactly said I'm talking about engine supported animations, not whatever extended features authors want to make.

You can turn a blind eye to that, but that problem also exists whether you want to disregard it or not, and whether it supports your position or not.

krzychuzokecia wrote:
As opposed to your ports, I create most of my content from scratch.

So what? I don't like to reinvent the wheel and waste my time if people are ok with my porting their great models.

krzychuzokecia wrote:
If I'll ever fancy myself doing whatever in Arma 3, I'll let you know first.

You know what? I changed my mind. Now I would rather prefer us to avoid each other from a distance 😄 I already wasted too much of my time on this and other conversations with you. I can blame myself only, since the one who's started it here, was myself. 😁

krzychuzokecia wrote:
In the mean time I propose you to create a completely original addon, with no borrowed content, for OFP - it should be so easy for expert like you.

Thanks, but I avoid getting stuck in the past, it helps to enjoy life. I personally know some dudes who have a problem with that, apparently. And, I am not an expert at all, you are wrong again. But if you don't have the space to throw some bile on people, I'll be happy to step down. EOT.

Apollo3CB

Following is a generalization, and not necessarily specific to the Huey's.

The main reason that the Pilot LOD will be split from the Gunner/Cargo LOD's in vehicles is related to poly count:

the poly's used in the pilot's console can be significant especially when there are a multitude of buttons, switches and dials
as can those used in the cargo bay weapons (eg door guns)

It's often not possible to have both pilot console and weapons at max poly detail in the same LOD and still remain within project specified limits for acceptable performance.

Textures can also be larger/higher resolution in some LOD's depending upon the seating position (closeness) of the viewing player.